> Compared to my stock frame bike....first thing I noticed was the double > D clutch, when you shift it hits hard and fast, no hesitation at all, > nice. Got some back tire 'chirping' with shifting. Stop'n'go would be a > real clutch hand work out though. You can improve the hit substantially without increasing the required pull by removing the rearmost 1/2 clutch plate and replacing it with a full plate. Instructions can be found on ingos tips section by Colin. -------------------- > Sid, > I don't have any personal experience w/ the clutch plates > but most of the guys either use the Barnett carbon setup which > is cheaper than OEM or they're using the Double D mod which > is a stock setup w/ extra diagphram. I think info on how to > do the mod is in the v-boost. I couldn't find the detail on > the net. I believe that Links (610) 282-4800 has the Barnett > clutch available. > > Doug455 > If you ask John Ganey or Paul Civitello, they'll tell you, "Use only the stock ones", if you ask guys at the track, they'll tell you, "Use only the stock ones", all said.As for the "double D Mode", I have it in my bike, it works fine if you don't mind a little more pressure everytime you pull the lever. Mario -------- Lawrence: Do yourself a favor, and buy stock Yamaha plates. Get your steel plates bead-blasted and install stock plates. If you want a killer clutch, just add another spring on top of the one you already have.(Trust me, the Earth will spin faster, when you drop your clutch) If everyone at the track, (including PCW and Mad Max) uses stock plates, why you want to use Barnett Kevlar?? Mario --------------------- By adding the extra full plate, and eliminating the "spring-clip" you are just increasing the contact of the plates, but not ensuring the "no slip" engagement. I did the opposite, I've used the double spring and left the half plate alone.The half plate, ring and wire clip work as a "dampener" to absorb some of the shock sent to the transmission, when the clutch is disengaged, so I opted to use the power of the springs, but retain some of the cushion.(rather change clutches than work on transmissions, right??) besides C'mon!! is not that hard to pull!!! I talked to John Ganey before I made the changes, and he agrees, that if you have a "Big-Bore" engine, then changing the half plate, and using double spring is the way to go, but if your engine is stock, just the double "D" will do, he told me, PCW was designing a special spring that will have the strengh of the double "D". Mario -------------- For starters, check the order of the discs and steel plates on the Clutch Section, if you assemble the clutch as shown on the Manual, it will never work ---------------- > Is anyone famimalar with the intimate details of the vmax clutch. > What is the > story with the different friction discs. The 6 (or 5) with 2 nicks in > one ear > and then one with one square notch (I guess it goes in last). Why the > > different types? I'm lost. Jim Y. 437 Jim: Is an easy job to do, some people claims the Barnett's Kevlar plates work better with synthetic oil' and synthetic blends, some prefer the stock plates (PCW,Mad Max). You can do the "double D" mode, complete or partial, (partial being just an extra spring), your best bet will be to sandblast the steel plates, check for signs of warping, (granite table), and before you assemble the fiber plates, keep them soaking in oil,(preferably the same oil you'll use in the engine) for a least a coupe of hours. I don't know if you have a Yamaha Service Manual, but if you do, the step by step assembling procedure is well detailed, be BEWARE, the order they show on the drawing is wrong, if you assemble as shown on the picture, you'll end up with 2 steel plates rubbing against each other. The complete "Double D" mode is great, if you have a "built" engine, if you have a stocker, just the adding of another spring will do, just fine, but be warned that the pull on the lever will be harder than before. mario ----------------- From: Coyote111@aol.com Subject: Need Vmax Clutch Help Mario, thanks for the reply. I have the doulble spring version. However, I'm lost as to the knotches on friction plate "ears". 1. Why do some (6) have the 2 small knotches in the "ear", and the last one, the large square knotch. 2. Is there really a clutch plate with a square knotch. There wasn't one in the bike when disasembeled. When I disasembeled it, it was turned 2 off, and in a very different order,( Squair knotch in the middle) 3. Is it important that they be in the specified order, and what are they tryin to accomplish with this arangement? Jim Y. 437 ------------------------------ From: TC Subject: Re: Need Vmax Clutch Help Jim, I don't know what they are trying to accomplish either with the bump and square notched friction plates other than there is supposed to be different friction material on the square marked plate/plates ...(it is last, and a second one is first if you are using a single spring, I am not sure what you are doing with the double spring .. I assume you are tossing one friction and one clutch .. you should still start and end with a friction plate .. usually a square marked one .. but hey .. you may get a more desired feel by moving these inboard or adding shims .. etc). But .. other than that you should know the following ... When you insert the friction plates, (lined up with the clutch housing marks), the double bump and the wide square is the "tight" position. This is the preferred assembly but any plate that binds should be inverted, (single bump and small square aligned with the housing marks respectively). This is on a plate by plate basis .. that is why you may have found some with a single bump and some with the double bump aligned with the clutch housing marks, (same deal for the square marked plate, wide square = tight; small square = loose). TC ------------------ >Rob Dees: whats the order of plates? If you remember... > >-JohnC383 > Couldn't really tell you,I just put them back in the exact way they came out,but I do recall my clutch plates were notched with 2 notches on one side,then spun 180 degrees there was a single notch,it didn't seem to jive with the manual but by then I had lost complete faith in the manual anyway. Robert Dees Tulsa,Ok. e-mail:robee@ix.netcom.com ----------------------- From: Coyote111@aol.com Subject: Re:Vmax clutch secrets reveled I believe I have uncovered the plot behind the vast vmax clutch conspiracy. The idea with the different friction plates (fiber plates) is... The outer most friction plate has a different coefficient of friction (as in the "square notch version), or, in the new style, is just made smaller. That is, has less surface area than the rest of the plates so it can slip, just a little, lowering shock on the trans. during engagement. The clutch plates (metal plates) are to be replaced when they are warped, show excessive wear, (no dimples) or are burned blue (like mine, hm, wonder why?!! Note: is this a sub plot perhaps). If they are burned brown, they may remain (pray because they are $130/set from Yamaha). These words from on high, were found inscribed on stone tablets, under a burning bush. (Not, I talked to a very good factory mechanic) ------------- AN alternative: Of course, I have and "improved" double-D clutch still in my TicketMaster, which added a retainer ring to hold both diaphragm springs in place (=on top of each other). Although I have not heard it before to happen to anybody else, the outer diaphragm shifted off-center and cut chunks out of the clutch basket. So when you assemble, be very thorough. Unfortunately, Don Smith, the maker of the retainer ring has no access to machinery right now (anybody knows about a job for a machinist in or around Houston?) The procedure is pretty simple and you don't even have to drain oil (but use plenty of rags for oil drippings), courtesy of PCW Racing. A good drawing and part# reference is at URL: http://fly.hiwaay.net/~drbailey/d2.htm 1. place the bike on the side stand. 2. Remove clutch cover and gasket. Catch dripping oil with a small pan. 3. Remove diaphragm spring by removing the six 6mm hex bolts with a 10mm socket. Now remove the aluminum pressure plate. 4.Remove the clutch plates one at a time, using a 90 deg pick or coat hanger. Inspect the friction plates for wear and the steel plates for over-heating (blue discoloration). Keep the plates in order for assy. 5. Look inside the hub and you'll find the ends of a retaining wire that holds the clutch damper plate in place. Remove the wire by pushing the ends back through the holes in the inner hub. 6.With the wire removed you can pull the full sized steel plate out. Now you can see the narrow friction disc, small wave washer and thin steel plate under the wave washer. Discard the friction disc, wave washer and thin steel plate, as they will be of no further use. 7. Get a new friction disc (Yamaha P/N 26H-16307-00) and put a small amount of engine oil on the new plate. Slide it in where the small wave washer used to be. Install the large steel plate and forget about the wire. You don't need that either. 8.Install the clutch plates in the order that you removed them, pressure plate and diaphragm spring. 9. Install the second diaphragm spring. 10. Torque the six 6mm bolts to 5.8 ft-lbs or 70 in-lbs (that's very little torque). 11. Install the new clutch cover gasket (P/N 26H-15462-00-00) and cover. Don't over tighten the cover. Make sure to start your Max and check for leaks. Big Bore Bert DesertMax@aol.com Tucson, AZ #120 ---------------- Hi Phil: Sometimes the friction plates get "glazed" and cause discoloration (blue and brown) to your steel plates due to the slippage, making them shinny and slippery, or sometimes they get scored and ruined, (all depends on how much you let your clutch go without replacement) By sandblasting the plates, you make them "grabby" again, and the engagement will be optimum, (as long as your steel plates are not warped) Another trick is to soak your friction plates in oil overnight, before assembling them, to allow the fibers to saturate completely and avoid dry fibers contacting against the steel, which may contribute to early scoring and deterioration. Also beware, that after continuous clutch replacement, the screen on your oil pump should be cleaned, or it will cause a serious oil starvation to the bearings. regards fn: Mario Aguiar ---------------------------- Subject: Vmax Thanks Justin! Hey Justin,I checked the shifting pins behind the clutch like you told me.Sure enough,one tab is bent out and one pin is missing.Thanks a bunch for the tip,you hit the nail on the head! Robert Dees Tulsa,Ok. e-mail:robee@ix.netcom.com VMOA #440 -------------- > bunch for the tip,you hit the nail on the head! Glad I could help! Have you found the lost pin yet? Try fishing around with a magnet in all that oil, otherwise you will probably have to pull the oil pan. Might be a good idea anyway...so you can check to see if any oil delivery o-rings are blown out. Let us know! Justin. -------------- The best way, is to get the gasket out in one piece!!!! LOL.Now seriously, most of the time the gasket comes out in one piece, since Yamaha does not use any kind of sealer, but in case is any remains, use the razor blade,(single edge) and don't go against the aluminum, use it as a spreader instead of a scraper. (trust me, never had a gasket leaking on me) Also, "Gasket Cinch" and "Hylomar" are good products, just to "set" the gasket in proper position, they are not sealers, and should be used sparingly, these products are used mostly in Drag-Racing engines, where a complete tear down is often needed, and gaskets can removed and sometimes re-used, without a problem. Mario ----------------- From: "Carson Martin" Subject: Re: Vmax Gaskets Hey Kelly, I rebuilt my engine this winter, the best thin I found to scrape gaskets was a razor blade with a holder/handle. When you reassemble I suggest a new gasket without any gunk, goo, silicone ect... A thin film of vasoline will help to keep it in place when you put your cover on it will also help removal when you remove your cover again. Robb '85 FlameMax Always have a plan B ------------- Subject: Re: Vmax Gaskets The gasket didn't need scraping off when I did mine. Came off with a fingernail. Vic. ----------------- From: Jeff Cain Subject: Re: Vmax Gaskets Kelly, I have had mine off more than once. I use a gasket scraper, just carefully. Try it with the scraper upside down so you don't dig in as easy. Jeff cds9682% ------------------------ 3) It is interesting to note that the Yamaha W/shop manual makes reference to 'hard meshing' which presumably means clutch drag - and offers a solution which includes inverting the friction plates and lining the single notch up with the two marks on the basket as opposed the normal arrangement. Me thinks Yamaha discovered this problem in the factory!! It also makes reference to a friction plate with a square slot in it - I didn't have one of those.